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We Must Mature In Our Walk With God

matureNote from author:  A massive argument broke out on my Facebook page because I proposed a paper that would contest the Trinity Doctrine.  That it would show that it isn’t scriptural to say that ‘Jesus is literally God’, that he is a separate entity from God and is, in fact, the divine Son of God.  That we will see BOTH God and Jesus when we went to heaven (do Trinitarians expect only to see a three headed God and not God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit?).  And of course, we will see and/or understand the true nature of the Holy Spirit.   That Jesus would be seated on the right hand of the Father and we, at the right hand of Jesus.  That Jesus was raised up by God to be equal to him- but that this notion that Jesus IS God is wrong as far as scripture is concerned.  GOD is God.  He made Christ equal, but he is before Christ.  He is higher than Christ and commands Christ just as Christ is higher than us and commands us.  I promised a full scriptural account of these truths.  This caused an ugly, hateful uproar where people acted in terrible fear and anger- many instantly unfriended me- and even my own pastor came online to say, in public, that I was basically unsaved if I didn’t agree that Christ WAS literally, God.    This is what I wrote in response to that most surprising  response from people who claim to be ‘loving’ Christians:


Is this how we still treat those who dare to question the Church Establishment?

Is this how we still treat those who dare to question the Church Establishment?

You know… I still can’t get it out of my mind what happened over these last days.  I can say this now because most of the people who did it have already ‘unfriended’ me.  Do Christians today REALLY still use words like ‘heresy’, ‘blasphemer’ or ‘recant’?  I want to look around for the burning stake when I hear words like that.  Those are the kinds of words the Catholics and Protestants threw around in Europe as people argued about the bible.  And here I thought those ignorant days of fear and dictatorship were gone.  The Protestants supposedly broke away from the Catholics because they wanted the freedom to read the bible themselves and interpret it individually while the Catholics said this was too ‘dangerous’- that priests should read it and interpret it for them.  They didn’t and don’t believe that ‘regular’ people can read the bible and be taught by the Holy Spirit.  They think that we are basically too dumb to read it and ‘get it’ properly.  Thus, they main the priesthood.  And they kept the bible in Latin until very recently.  My father was raised in the Catholic church and listened to the mass in Latin.  Doesn’t that show a remarkable lack of faith in the power of Scripture and in the power of the Holy Spirit?

Every pastor and every ‘protestant’ today is literally going up against over 2000 years of ‘intensive, studied, faithful and prayerful’ church doctrine by breaking away from the Catholic church.  The Catholic Church still calls Martin Luther a heretic.  And they still maintain that we all are wrong.  Most of us are going to hell because a priest won’t chant over us before we croak.  And yet, being in such a state of heresy as we are to the largest church in the world, we maintain that we are indeed Christians and that we have the right to read the word directly and to interpret it individually.  And yet again, pastors and protestant people have become as bad as the Catholics in their love of doctrine!  To have protestants screaming, ‘heretic!’, ‘blasphemer!’ and ‘recant!’ is to watch history repeat itself.

But no one sees that.

I saw a comment from a woman who cheers my backstabber-of-a-friend’s mocking post (which called me a cult leader and YOU a cult), “There’s TWO things that can never be questioned:  the Trinity and Doctrine!”

Okaaaay…. I say, backing up slowly..

Really?  Doctrine should never be questioned?  Then why are you a protestant?  Luther specifically fought for our God given right to read the bible for ourselves.  And I side wholeheartedly with him!  I take not only the right, but the terrible responsibility for it myself.

That isn’t arrogant, that is to be a Protestant.  And you can’t say that you aren’t a protestant because any denomination outside of the Catholic Church is, by definition, a Protestant denomination.

So.  This ‘doctrine shall never be challenged’ notion?  It’s wrong headed.  And dangerous.  Of course it should be challenged.  It’s man-made, isn’t it?  Hence, the word, ‘doctrine’ and not ‘scripture’.

Here is what I believe:  Mankind, as is echoed by our own bodies, it was young in the Christian faith at one point and now needs to grow up.  In the days of the early church, there were no bibles.  People were illiterate even if there were a plethora of bibles to be had.  Easy doctrine would be important then.  But today, with the advent of technology and 2000 years of development, we are maturing in our walk.  No longer are Christian concepts new.  They are prevailing.  No one shocked anymore that the Messiah has already come.  No one is shocked that he came as a servant and not an earthly king.  No one is shocked that he equated Jew and Gentile, man and woman, slave and master.  In fact, all our western governments are based on that very premise of equality today.  None of this shocks us.  And we have the bible in every hotel room in America.  Not hard to come by.  I can see why the early church doctrine was necessary to stave off ‘heresy’- namely, that antagonistic Jews (the original Gnostics) were running around saying that Jesus was literally just a man.  A good man.  But not the Son of God and not equal to God himself- basically, that he wasn’t divine in any way.  The fledgling church probably couldn’t have withstood these people’s ideas as well as they did without the doctrine of the Trinity (ie, Jesus IS God).  Doctrine is basically the ‘Bible for Stupid People’.  It boils things down into snippets and statements.  It does not go into depth- it is meant to glue it all together easily.  It is based on the premise that people are too stupid to read for themselves and understand.  It is based on the premise that people are rather stupid and lazy as a whole.  It is based on the premise that even if we do read the scriptures, we will never understand it properly.  I believe we can and must.  We are ready to mature.  We need the meat of scripture now, not the bread of doctrine.

Look at the Catholic Church.  It has taken this notion (that we are basically dumb and stupid) to the hilt.    It took the Protestant Reformation (where people were burned and burned and burned at the stake) to knuckle the Catholic Church to allow its people to have their own bibles in their own languages (of course, before they did that, they added several books to the bible to justify their oddities- dispensations, priesthood and purgatory).  So, if the rule is, ‘Don’t ever question man’s doctrine because it has been around for thousands of years’, then none of you would have a bible in English.  It would still be in Latin and you would still be a Catholic.  So that idea is nonsense.

The Catholic Church’s greatest mistake has been that it has no faith in either the inherent power of the Word and the inherent power of the Holy Spirit.  Jesus said, ‘Call no man your Father- you have but one Father and he is in Heaven.”  He sent us the Holy Spirit to be our one Teacher and Counselor.  This is all we need.  Lutheran certainly believed that.  And so do I.  That isn’t arrogant.  That’s a fact.  And with that freedom comes tremendous responsibility.  Arrogant?  No.  Brave.  No pastor or denomination will answer for any of us.  We will stand there, naked, before God and he will ask us to account for why we didn’t read his Word when it was right there, in our house, gathering dust.  And no one will have an excuse.  And your pastor will be there too, right behind you, ready to stand naked as well.

I believe the human race needs to mature again.  It needs to take the next step in our walk with God.  We need to understand that the Real church is you and me.  Not a denomination and not a building.  We have no pastor or priest above us.  Those who would put someone between us and God are breaking the commandments of Jesus.

Therefore, as the Church, no one can come with authority and say, “you are a heretic’ or ‘you are a blasphemer’ or ‘you must publicly recant’.  No one.  The only one who can tell us that with authority is the Holy Spirit who most certainly does convict our souls.  He commands and prods and pushes us.  I have faith in the power of the very Words of God to contain LIFE unto themselves.  They hold the weight of truth in them and they are not frail in the least.  They are granite blocks, immovable as the sun and as Jesus promised us, ‘not one pen stroke shall disappear from the Word until his return.’  You don’t need to read it in Latin and you certainly don’t need to learn Greek or Aramaic or Hebrew to ‘get it’.  The Holy Spirit is in control once you give over your life to God’s will.  I have faith that I will be taught by the Counselor that Jesus sent with this specific task in mind.  If you don’t believe that, then you don’t believe Christ, who spoke those words.

It IS a worthy use of time for Christians to read the word and discuss all thoughts concerning it.  There is no blaspheming for questioning mankind’s own understanding.  There is no heresy to discuss ALL scripture, not just the handpicked ones of the church establishment.  If DOCTRINE were something holy, then as I said, we would all still be Catholics.  If questioning 2000 years of mankind’s ‘prayerful thoughts’ is heresy, then every one of us is a heretic as we left the Catholic Church.  None of these are the correct way to approach each other concerning the study and discussion of God’s Scripture.  No. Any question may be asked and if we must have priests and pastors, then they, above all people, are responsible for answering these questions of scripture in full, not to say you are unsaved because you ask them.

Paying pastors is a worthy thing to do.  Doctrine can still be helpful.   Organized church is still useful.  But the time has come for us all to truly realize what ‘church’ is.  It is us.  You and me, gathered in his name.  Even as you read this, we are in Church.  It is the Spirit that binds us to Christ and to God.  We are ALL the Church.  Our pastors have a paid position to do a job for us:  ie, run the organized church.  Early churches didn’t have paid pastors to begin with.  Churches met in people’s homes.  People all discussed the scripture.  Apostles traveled around to newbie churches to teach.  People sent money to missionaries and apostles as they could.  Today’s organized church is just the most pragmatic way we have found to gather Christians together in a comfortable manner.  However, if I invited a couple of friends to my house for prayer and bible study, that is church too.

Be wary of too much organization.  My observation has always been that when people are put in charge, it takes a massive amount of effort and prayer to not abuse that charge-  or to not become overly self important.  To not become the ‘boss’ of others and the singular authority on matters of God.  But none of that is right.  It is wrong.  And shame on all pastors that would do such things.

Christians of the World , WE are the church.  WE are the biggest ‘church’ in the world.  Our solidarity is our worship of Christ as God’s own begotten Son, who came to this earth in all grace and love to teach, to die, and to be raised again by our Father to serve as the first fruits of God’s holy plan.  We believe that God gave Christ all authority to lift us up from death as God lifted Christ from the dead.  We believe that we will receive new bodies as Christ did also.  These bodies will be eternal bodies- we will all be transformed.  Jesus has invited all who believe in him to sit on his right hand as he sits on God’s right hand in heaven.  We will see Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit in heaven and THEN and only then, will we understand ALL.  Until then, we put our faith in Jesus.  We trust in the Holy Spirit to teach us the meaning of the Scripture by the Holy Spirit.  All who believe this ARE Christ’s church.

So let no one- I mean no one- tell you it is wrong to question man’s thoughts.  Everything made by man, thought by man, created by man is corrupt to its bones.  Because we are corrupt to our bones.  Believe only in God’s Word.  There is only one place to find God’s Holy Words – that is the Holy Bible, which I uphold as the law and authority of my life.  Everything of man’s may serve for a small while but eventually stales and becomes rotten.  Everything made by God endures forever.  Amen.


  1. Very interesting post! Your blog has inspired me to read more of the Old Testament and seek wisdom and guidance from the Holy Spirit.
    Could you also think of the trinity as the three phases of water.: liquid Water, Ice and steam.
    ice is not steam, ice is just ice. similarly steam isn’t ice, steam is just ice, but they are all made up of the same molecules or “stuff:, H2O

    • Well, I could think that way, but my question to you is this: “Why should I think that way? The bible is perfectly clear about who God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are.” Well, perhaps not the Holy Spirit. I am a little foggy there. But God is defined very clearly. So is Jesus. They speak very clearly about each other. Only when pastors and priests start talking do things get confusing. I think the reason I am so clear on this matter is that I didn’t go to church for so many years of my life. I have simply read the bible and trusted in the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth of the bible to me. Also, I have read a whole lot of bible history. I trust in my mind, my intellect and God. God is full of perfect logic. The bible is perfectly logical. There is nothing that fails to makes sense. God did not make the bible mysterious. In fact, it is plain as day. Why, then, would he make his very nature a mystery? Why would make his son a mystery? He and his son are the most important things for us to be clear about! God is exceedingly clear about himself. In fact, all that he does, he does so that we will know he is God. He wants us to know him and to know him personally. It would make no sense to make himself confusing. Nor does he. The problem exists because of man’s imperfect understanding. BECAUSE man thinks we should be a ‘monotheistic’ society. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but that is MAN’s word. It is a word as limited as man’s understanding of what the very nature of Godhood is. What is the nature of God? what IS his ‘one’-ness? How far does he span? There is this great worry among theologians that because the bible makes it clear that Jesus is also called a ‘God’ BY ‘God’ one time in the bible and is also called ‘my God’ by Thomas in the New Testament, that if we worship him AND God, then we are worshipping TWO Gods, thus breaking God command to worship only him as God. Also, this would make polytheistic. In the panic that ensues, these theologians rush to create a model where everyone can be partially satisfied. And in the process, NO ONE is satisfied. In fact, the entire bible gets turned upside down and 99% of the bible ceases to make sense. All because of a few verses they couldn’t understand. Here is how I would rather handle a few verses that I fail to understand. I accept them as true. And then I also accept the other 98% as true. And I form my overall theology on the 98% I understand and hold out the 2% as caveats to my understanding and say, “When I meet God someday, I will ask him to explain that to me.” I will trust in his character. I will trust in the Holy Spirit. I know, by all that he has said and done, that he wishes me to fully understand him intimately. I know he does not wish to mystify me about his nature. Thus, I must conclude that what the 98% says that is logical and clear IS the truth. And that I am personally lacking in wisdom to incorporate the other 2%. I trust that I will be able to do so in the future. As it stands, I feel I already can explain the other two percent. The Old Testament reference to Jesus as God is when God is talking about lifting Jesus ‘up from among his companions.’ It is God speaking about Jesus becoming his son and God becoming his father. Is about Jesus becoming above all others in heaven. God calls Jesus, ‘God’ at this time. I believe he is speaking poetically. Jesus is equal to God now. But remember, Jesus also did the same for us. He said that we are no longer his slaves. He said, you are no longer my slaves. I now call you friend. You are now my brothers and sisters. You will sit at my right hand as I sit next to my Father’s right hand. God lifted Christ to his right hand just as Jesus lifted us to his right hand. God lifted Jesus to be his equal. But God is still the ONLY God. But God gives all honor to Christ- so that we may honor him as we do the Father. Thus, we can worship Christ, but not call him God. We do not break God’s commandment. Never does God say that we can not worship Christ. In fact, it is clear that we can. The angels worship Jesus. Jesus never stopped Thomas from worshipping him. But to call Jesus God is not correct. I believe it is wrong. However, I know that God understands those who become confused in this matter. I don’t try to correct those who do this. I will never attempt to correct people in this- I never want people to think it is ok to bring Christ down. Christ is to be lifted up always. I think God understands the confusion.

      As to Thomas calling Jesus, ‘my God’. Well, again. Thomas understood in that moment that Christ was not merely a man. That he was divine in his nature. That he was high above him. He was a God/man. And he is. But God is his own person. Jesus is his own person.

      As to the Holy Spirit. I’m not sure if he is his own person. Both Jesus and God seem to speak of him differently. God calls the HOly Spirit HIS holy spirit. Jesus says he will send the Holy Spirit. Is the Holy Spirit a part of God? Is it the literal spirit of God? Is God a personage that has a spirit that can be sent? Can it be sent by another person? Look, these are things I clearly am not meant to fully understand or it would be in the bible. I don’t think God is trying to mystify us. I think we are literally incapable of understanding the true nature of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They literally do not live in our three dimensions. They live outside of time, even. How can they possibly explain themselves or heaven to us? Jesus tried to explain heaven to us- but he had to use metaphor to do it. We will truly know some day. Our brains and bodies will be such that we are capable of full understanding. Until then, I want to tell these theologians to stop trying to be smarter than God. He wrote a perfect book that mankind is capable of understanding. They are trying to force their limited words and understanding on something as important as the nature of GOD and Jesus. I say, Just ACCEPT the words in the bible and use them precisely as written. No more, no less.

  2. Hi I want to know what you meant by Jeuss was created. I don’t understand what you meant by that in your comments box..

  3. Jonah 2:9 says salvation is of the LORD, how can salvation be in Jesus if He is not LORD? Is Jesus a mere man? All things were created by Him for Him(John 1:1-3 and Col 15-18) Zechariah 2:10 says in Hebrew that basically Yahweh sends Yahweh. Titus 2:13 says Jesus is God clearly and confirmed by Granville Sharps rule of grammar in the greek. So many more but I think you are probably aware of them. Here is the difference, if you deny who Jesus how can you be ‘in Jesus’ if your version of Jesus is not Scriptural. I don’t believe one has to believe in Trinity to be saved but once saved and indwelled by the Holy Spirit (teacher) I would think one would accept the scriptural truths of this doctrine.

    • Hi Charlie, I don’t believe in the Trinity doctrine because it is just that: doctrine. Therefor, made up by men. Now, the Catholics have believed for almost 2000 years that THEY were the only True Church. They still claim to this day that any protestant is saved by grace- but that they have been severely misled and are NOT going to true church every sunday. So, I could line up thousands upon thousands of priests to say that all the protestants of the world have gotten the bible and salvation wrong. And yet, protestants are more than happy to endure their wrath and judgement. Why? Because they know they are allowed to use that bible as the ONLY source for God’s will. That is what I believe too. The protestant churches are starting to be like the Catholic church in that they believe their doctrine is more important than God’s words. If God wanted us to believe in the word, ‘trinity, then he would have explicitly say so. But he didn’t. In fact, 99.99% of the bible verses show God to be a different Person than Christ. As for ‘denying’ Christ as Lord, who has done that? Christ IS Lord. God IS God. God has authorized Jesus to BE our Lord and Savior. Christ in not ‘just a man’. In fact, Christ is equal to God. But God raised him up to his position. That is biblical. Don’t believe me? read your bible! Apostle Paul wrote most of the New Testament. It was through his divine inspiration that he could explain how the Old and New covenants work together. He defines modern Christian thought. It was HE who said Christ was not embarrassed to consider himself EQUAL to God. And that God raised him above the angels to be his begotten SON. So, not only is Christ not just a man, but he was not a man at all in the beginning. He is made up of the same ‘stuff’ of God. He took human form for our sakes. To show us what we would also go through in our own resurrection. So, the idea that to deny the ‘trinity doctrine’ is to automatically deny the deity of Christ is false. The third option is the TRUTH- as written clearly in the bible. Martin Luther fought to give all people the right to read the bible and to be taught by the Holy Spirit. That is the right I claim here. For every verse you think you can quote in the bible, I can explain perfectly well – even better and more logically than can those who believe that there is no God- just God the father, God the son and God the Holy spirit. There IS a God. And he is himself. Jesus is his begotten Son, raised to be equal to God and there is the Holy spirit, which we will understand better when we get there. That is the true scripture. And I will adhere to it until the BIBLE says differently.

  4. Having been involved in the conversation mentioned, I want to thank you. I can’t remover the last time I actually studied (not just read) the Bible. I would like to mention one thing I found (not directly trinity related). In Titus, Paul tells us to reject a heretick after 2 admonisents. There are other places that specifically refer to doctrine and false doctrines and heresy. I would like to continue discussing your beliefs about Christ’s deity and what the bible says about his relation to Gid the Father, but 1) I have a lot more studying to do and 2) way too much type on an iPhone. Thanks again for stimulating the study of the Bible.

    • Jon, my belief is biblical. Many disagreed. But then again, most don’t read their bible. Here is my belief in a nutshell- and very single word I am about to speak is confirmed through scripture- not once, but hundreds of times:

      1) God is God- there is no other. He created ALL.

      2) Jesus is God’s Son. God begot Christ (Christ was created), raised him up (from among his companions, the angels) and made him EQUAL to himself. But as God was first and did the raising, he is still more powerful than Christ.
      ” therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions (angels)
      by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

      I’ve read all the verses that people bring up to say that Jesus is literally GOD. But to me, it is easy to see why Jesus is called ‘God’ once, by Thomas. Even God called Jesus ‘God’ when he was saying that he was raising him above the angels to become his equal, to be his SON. He was making the point that Jesus was now on the same level as him now. It is an expression. See Hebrews 1 Here, in Psalm 2, we see that God ‘begot’ Christ- ‘Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee”

      3) The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. It is clear that God uses the Holy Spirit to do his will on this earth. Even Jesus became full of the Holy Spirit from time to time. The Holy Spirit is a Counselor, Teacher, Comforter. It is clear that the Holy Spirit is held in very high esteem by God as the one and only unforgivable sin recorded in the bible is to curse the Holy Spirit. Past that, I will find out more about him/it when I get to heaven. The bible just isn’t very clear who/what the Holy Spirit is. We just see that people ‘become full of’ the Holy Spirit and they begin to do miracles, prophecy or sing praises to God.

      That’s it.

      • So, you are Jehovah Witness for they believe Christ was also a created being. In either case, you are wrong.

      • No. Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe Christ was anything other than a man. I don’t believe that. He is the divine son of God- just as he claimed to be. and we will see who is wrong when we see Christ.

  5. The most important and at the same time the very humble thing you wrote in your article in my view is this: “We will see Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit in heaven and THEN and only then, will we understand ALL.”
    Amen! We will see only then, and Jesus Our High Priest will teach us. Halleluja. I am so looking forward to the peace of Christ!

  6. I’ve been reading most of the posts for the last few days. It just happens that today I had a chance to catch up with a sermon from my last preacher. This sermon was on Acts Chapter 15 where one group of Jews stated that Gentiles had to be circumcised to follow Jesus. Basically this group, Paul and Barnabas decided to take it to the leadership of the church to resolved this issue. The bottom line is that when there is conflict within the church, you first get together with all involved, pray about it together and see what the bible says on the subject. I feel that many started slinging mud before they prayed about it. I believe that challenging and questioning the meaning of verses is fine, that is how people usually learn. Even questioning God is fine as long as you have the respect and proper fear.

    • Great article. thanks! But I do think that FB is where the people are at. I believe in my work- not just on FB but here on WordPress as well. But I agree, the spiritual food fight is wrong.

  7. Who are the “priests” to whom you refer. I know what the Bible says, but what is “your take”
    on your last post ? Un mil gracias for your reply

  8. Reb-

    It may do you good to ‘rehash.’ Some of your readers may simply be misunderstanding you.

    • Well, I really don’t want to ‘rehash’. We did it for two whole days and people got really ugly. Backstabbing, name calling and even my pastor came on the record to basically call me ‘unsaved’ in his eyes. Such is life. This article is not to discuss the trinity doctrine and the ins and outs of it. It is to discuss the behavior of Christians. I will leave it at that for now.

  9. Rebel-

    Appealing to scripture is the very best place to settle all questions. When the Lord Jesus said ‘I am the first and the last, behold who was dead, now liveth,.’ you need to address whether or not this is ‘the first and the last of Isaiah.’

    Answer this carefully, and it will help you settle the issue at hand.

    • I am not interested in rehashing the trinity doctrine in this particular article. This article is about the hypocrisy of protestants calling each other heretics and blasphemers and telling them they must ‘recant’ . It would be laughable if it didn’t really happen on my page.

  10. My concern is that your pastor said that if you don’t believe in the theory of oneness that your salvation is at risk. I am not understanding where in the Bible he found that information. I looked under salvation, didn’t find it there, I looked under “oneness”, couldn’t find it, and then I tried to find a place in the Bible where God gave authority to man to decide who enters the kingdom and who doesn’t. I couldn’t find that either. I read his response to you and was concerned with his pompous air, and his complete lack of patience in your comments. Its easier for people to not think. Let’s face it. How many people have gone along with the crowd because they don’t have the guts or they don’t have the interest to check on facts on their own? Its easier to let someone else dictate what happens and what doesn’t. This is about your forever. This is on you. You will stand in front of God and give an accounting of everything he has kept track of. I think that you, Susan, have done enough praying, crying, and studying over this issue, and this sadness. You are following the great commission. Love you, hate you, sick of you or whatever, that is where free will comes in. People can not like you now, but when they are standing in front of God, with Jesus sitting at his right hand, I think its too late then to realize, maybe I should have checked into this myself. No one that reads you will like everything you say, but I will tell you one thing, You will make sure that whatever their opinion, whether it is the same as your’s or not, they will come away from talking with you, knowing what they believe and why they believe it. That is the greatest gift you can give anyone….. Peace.

    • Tina. I thank you for your comment. And I agree. My heart is also troubled by my pastor- especially in light of the fact that he has still not called me or made contact in any way. I do hope he will- soon. I do believe this is ‘fixable’. But it was wrong to imply that I was ‘outside of christian thought’ or ‘outside my church’s statement of ‘faith’. Both statements imply that I am not actually a Christian, or why even say it? No one can tell me that because Christ burns my heart with a fire that consumes. I will die for his sake rather than deny him. That much I know. And that much I have also proven through my work. It is so easy to point fingers. It is another to put your life, reputation, and safety (even that of my family) on the line for the name and promise of Christ. We all fail. There is no doubt. But the day I allow anyone to tell me about my own salvation is a very cold day in hell.

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